Dr. Travis Parry (00:01.571)
Welcome everyone today. I'm privileged to have Tom Jackobs with us in the virtual studio here to record this podcast. Tom is a heart led sales strategist and the creator of selling with heart framework after selling his own fitness business. He dedicated his career to helping health and wellness professionals confidently enroll more clients without sounding salesy. There's a lot to that. get, we'll get into that later. He coached thousands of practitioners.

Blending story-driven communication with simple, repeatable frameworks that convert. Now he's integrating AI and automation to make sure leads get followed up with instantly without losing the personal touch. I'm so excited for this. This is great. I am a big fan and, you know, Tom and I've had some chat, you know, done before on his podcast and you know, it's just exciting to get to hear from, from him today. Tom, welcome to the show.

Tom Jackobs (01:02.466)
Thanks for having me, Travis. I'm really glad to be here and continue our conversation from the show you were on. This would be great.

Dr. Travis Parry (01:09.357)
Yeah, it was a pleasure. Well, yeah. So now the roles are reversed, but, I always like to start with, man, how did you get here? Tell us your story. What, you know, what's, what's been, the, the, you know, the backstory to Tom.

Tom Jackobs (01:15.202)
That's right.

Tom Jackobs (01:19.086)
How did you get?

Tom Jackobs (01:26.67)
It's been a long, windy road of who would ever guess that I would be where I am today. Like, certainly not me. I went to school and went to college for theater. So I have a degree in theater management. know, leaving the graduating from theater school.

The job opportunities in 1994 when I graduated were plentiful, but my first offer was for $15,000 as a box office manager at an off-loop theater in Chicago. I was like, $15,000 in 1994? I have two really bad habits that I need to keep going, which is sleeping inside and eating real food. And $15,000 a year, I my habits.

Dr. Travis Parry (02:16.313)
You

Tom Jackobs (02:20.086)
So I went into, oil and gas of all things. So I started working in oil and gas for 10 years. Took me down to Houston. got overweight, had health problems, high blood pressure, high cholesterol. And I was only 30 years old at the time. My doctor said, you keep this up. You're not going to hit sit and you're not going to see 40. And so I said, well, what should I do doc? And he said, well, you could take this pill.

or these pills, were like two prescriptions that he was wanting to write for me. Or he could do that thing called diet and exercise, but nobody does this here, take the pills. And I was like, well, I'm not really into the medication. So I decided to do the health and wellness route. so I, over 12 weeks, I lost 40 pounds of fat, gained 10 pounds of muscle and got in the best shape of my life at the time. And that's, that, that trans...

transition and transformation that I went through set me up to realize that, you know what, shipping rail cars full of propane around the country just isn't doing it for me. I'm not like really helping people. I mean, sure, they get the gas so that they don't get cold in the wintertime, but it's not not fulfilling me. So I decided to go get a personal training degree or certification. And and I started training people and loved it.

I was training people before work at lunch, after work, know, waking up at five o'clock, leaving the gym at nine o'clock at night and just loving it. But when I went to the day job, it was like sucking the soul out of me. I was there for that eight hours. And finally I decided to open up my own studio. And so then I went into personal training and health and wellness. And that's when I realized I couldn't sell.

because I almost went broke within six months. I was like, you know what? I've been in oil and gas managing millions of dollars in freight and I can't run a small business. Like what the heck is wrong with me? And so all that doubt came in. And so I had to hire a coach, which I was like, hire a coach? Like, what's that all about? Like, I've never heard of that. So I hired a coach that, and the first thing she told me was like, you suck at sales. You need to get better at it.

Tom Jackobs (04:40.11)
I was like, oh, wow, like, I don't like to sell like, my parents were always told me salespeople were bad. And it was always a confrontation whenever we went to buy anything. I was like, I don't want to be a salesperson. But I decided if I wanted to keep my business, I better learn how to sell. So I read everything about selling. So I, you know, I followed all the all the big names, you know, all the old school like, you know,

the old school, know, beat them over the head until they buy or die type of philosophy and sit well with me. But then I realized that I had something else within me that was really driving and that was my care and that I really cared about people. And I finally found some books that talked about how to have a conversation around sales. I was like, wow, a conversation, how about that? And I don't have to beat somebody up and convince them. And so I started creating

Dr. Travis Parry (05:12.697)
Right.

Tom Jackobs (05:39.244)
you I went through a training program and it was all consultative selling. And I remember sitting down with my first consult going through this new process, because before when somebody would come into the studio and they wanted to buy personal training, this was exactly my script. was like, Hey, can I help you? And they were like, yeah, I want a personal training. Okay. Yeah. It's 60 bucks a session. And if you buy 10 at a time, you get the 11th for free. you want it or not? That was, that was pitch.

Dr. Travis Parry (06:05.901)
Yeah

Tom Jackobs (06:08.91)
Clearly, that's why I was going broke in six. So I went through this consultation, a consultative sales approach, and I had this slide presentation, how we're going to help this person. And Sharon was her name. And I'll remember her till the day I die. We sat down. went through, asked her really good questions, got the emotion out. I think we cried together as well. And at the end of the conversation, I go through my

Dr. Travis Parry (06:10.969)
That's right.

Tom Jackobs (06:37.646)
three options that I have. I said, you know, Karen, based on what you want, I'd recommend, you know, our 100 session package, but you could do it in 50 sessions. But I really recommend that we do it in 100 because that's going to solidify your your weight loss for life. And then I just shut up because that's what I was told to do. Just be quiet. And she was quiet as well. And that was freaking me out. I was like, what? Oh, why did I offer 100 sessions?

And mind you, I'd only sold 10 sessions at a time before. And here I am 10xing that and saying, you want to buy, buy a hundred. she, she was thinking, and I was like, I should have just given her a free session just to try it out. And, I kept my mouth shut. And finally she was like, yeah, let's do it. And I think the first words that came out of my mouth were, are you sure?

Dr. Travis Parry (07:35.949)
Ha

Tom Jackobs (07:37.934)
She was handing her credit card in it and I was shaking. I was shaking as I swiping that card and it went through and I was like, it was $5,500. I had never sold anything over $600 in that business before and that was a struggle. And here I just paid the rent and my payroll for the month in one.

Dr. Travis Parry (08:02.105)
Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (08:02.958)
It was incredible. so that's kind of my backstory. I know it's a long and windy road, but that's what got me to love selling with heart and love selling and the whole process of helping people solve a problem and have that exchange of I'm going to help you, you're going to help me, and we're going to get better together.

Dr. Travis Parry (08:09.537)
No, it's great.

Dr. Travis Parry (08:26.967)
I love this. think any business owner knows the struggle of marketing and sales and specifically sales. And quite honestly, one of the first things I see business owners do is they try to get out of sales as quickly as possible, you know, get that to somebody else because it's not usually what they love doing. However, they know that they're there. The ones that have produced well, they know that they're really good at it and they figured out.

how to be good at it because that is exactly why small businesses fail. Lack of sales is the number one reason. Right? So, I mean, yeah. When you're talking about your sales journey, I'm thinking about all the books I've ever read, you know, how to win friends and influence people. It's like not technically a sales book, but it's a sales book. Like it's learning about people and, you know, all sorts of books I read over, over the course of my career, but

Tom Jackobs (09:02.254)
100 % lack of much.

Dr. Travis Parry (09:24.577)
Yeah, the consultative selling approach absolutely has changed my life and has allowed me to help other people. And I love that you're about that. Now, I know you mentioned AI a little bit. This is, is that more part of your framework? Is that more part of, you know, kind of an add on, you know, just dealing with like the world we live in to stay up to date with people? Maybe touch on that a bit and then we can, we can take this in a little bit different direction.

Tom Jackobs (09:37.55)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Jackobs (09:54.786)
Yeah, I've been all in on AI for the last two years and just learning all about how to streamline systems and processes to take the human error out of it. so automation is a big part of that, and especially around sales. know, speed to lead is something that every business owner has to like embed into their DNA because there's so many choices out there.

And if you don't respond to a lead within five minutes, they're onto the next person on Google. And you've lost a, you've not just lost a sale, but you've lost a customer for life at that point. So we're developing, or we've developed an AI voice receptionist that will answer calls 24 hours a day, seven days a week, sounds empathetic, has the guardrails in. So

they don't go off the rails and give medical advice because we work with a lot of medical providers and but has empathy and can, you know, repeat back and ask the right questions and never has a bad day and doesn't get flustered when there's an angry caller. It's all those things that when we're in sales or customer service, all those things that come in that make us human, but get in our way of helping other people.

Dr. Travis Parry (11:12.419)
Right.

Tom Jackobs (11:22.732)
and the AI just kind of calms things down and just takes over. So that's a big part of that is speed to lead because that's, if you have a lead coming in and if you're doing marketing, like, I spent thousands of dollars a month on ads, on Facebook ads. If I'm not attacking those leads, that's a lot of money that goes wasted because somebody's not following up with leads that are coming into the business.

Dr. Travis Parry (11:27.459)
really cool.

Tom Jackobs (11:50.438)
So that's the biggest thing that I'm using AI for. And the second thing is for communication after the sale. So all of my sales calls are recorded and I run them through the AI to give me a summary of what happened and give me another insight because I'll take note. But the AI is listening to every single word, all the intent as well, and is able to give me some insights that I missed.

Dr. Travis Parry (11:50.893)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (12:18.189)
you.

Tom Jackobs (12:18.988)
insights and, and is able to look at the intent from the prospect as well and give me some more insights to now communicate to that prospect in a way that they're like, he was listening to me, which I was with the help of AI. And now I'm connecting with that person even more because they're like, I'm seen and I'm heard. I want to do business with this guy.

Dr. Travis Parry (12:43.043)
Love it. Yeah, that's great. So this brings me to my next question and that is like, what, what do you think is the biggest issue that business owners face when it comes to 10 Xing their sales? obviously this is, you know, our discussion is about 10 Xing without, know, losing balance, but I think honestly, anything productivity wise can help with that. I'm curious, is, is AI that solution by itself?

Or do you have another framework that AI sits in inside of?

Tom Jackobs (13:16.236)
Yeah, AI. So I think a lot of people are worried that AI is going to take our jobs, it's going to like, take over the world, and we're gonna have Skynet or something like something crazy like that. Right now, AI is a thought partner. It's it's your the person that you're going to not person the thing that that you're going to do run ideas by, because it has all the knowledge in the world. But it has no idea how to use that knowledge.

we know how to use that knowledge. And so I think it's doing AI a disservice when people just go, tell me how to write a better email. Well, that doesn't give a good prompt. So I've spent a lot of time researching prompts and having the AI teach me how to prompt better as well, which is kind of fun to have it teach you how to talk to it. And

the prompts are getting better and the results are getting better as well. So definitely using AI in that, but then I have my own framework that the AI kind of sits in to allow the salesperson to do a lot better job with the in-person sales that they're doing or in-person telephone or Zoom type of sales. And that's what I call the heart method or selling with heart and heart is an acronym.

And it stands for hugs. It stands for hugs, engage, ask, referral and testimonial. And to me, that's a full life cycle of a sales conversation. So hugs is the rapport building. You it's like, you want to allow that prospect to feel safe and comfortable. So they open up and tell you and how comfortable and safe is a nice embrace, right with with a trusted friend. So that's why I call it hugs. Plus it starts with H.

Dr. Travis Parry (15:07.939)
Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (15:12.192)
And so we do the rapport building first, and then we go into engage, which is asking the right questions in the right order to get that prospect to realize the problem that they have is big enough for them to solve it now, and for them to solve it with you. So that's engage, then within that engage, we also mirror back what we heard them say. So it's really good communication style to repeat back, make sure I got this right.

Dr. Travis Parry (15:12.601)
Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (15:41.154)
And then we present our solution to them connecting what their problem is to how we solve it. And that's, this is where a lot of salespeople kind of fail. They just have their regular presentation. They just go through that rote presentation and they make the prospect. Try to figure out, okay, I understand your program, but how's that going to solve my problem? So they have, they have to connect the dots and that's, that's not fair because they're not going to connect them the way that you should be connecting them.

for them. So connecting the dots during the presentation. And then the ask is usually the A in heart. And everybody says, well, yeah, of course, I'm going to ask for the sale. And I say, No, we're not going to ask for the sale. We're going to allow the prospect to ask us how to enroll in the program. Because if you've done everything else right up until that point, they should be like, my gosh, this is better than sliced bread. Where have you been all my life?

Dr. Travis Parry (16:29.209)
Beautiful. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (16:39.948)
Yes, want, hey, they're reaching in their pocket, they're pulling out their credit card. I don't care how much it is, I just want it. That's the ask. Of course, if they don't get to that point, then you do actually have to ask them. And then the referral testimonials after you've given really great service, you don't do this during the sale process, but 30 days after you've worked with the person, you're gonna wanna ask for a referral and a testimonial, just so that adds more fuel to your whole cycle of growing your business.

Dr. Travis Parry (16:47.161)
Precisely.

Dr. Travis Parry (16:51.8)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (17:09.91)
Yeah. Love it. Yep. Wonderful. These are really great bite size, you know, bits of information. Obviously we can't explore every one of these, although I want to, I'm already re you know, let's buy your book. Let's hear this all the way through. But if you have to give us one specific point of this framework, what would you say is the most important? Is it the first one? Is it, you know, something else? Like what, what is the most important part of this frame?

Tom Jackobs (17:40.814)
The most important part is the questioning. That is where you make the sale. And so many people skim over the questioning or they interject solutions within the questioning, which is completely wrong to do because we're not allowing that prospect to speak. The salesperson should only be talking less than 20 % of the time. The prospect should be just gabbing all the time. But the

Dr. Travis Parry (17:59.182)
Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (18:10.018)
So there's a little mini framework that I have and it's called the what, why, what, why. And so those are four questions. I'll clue you in. They start what, why, what, why. I'm pretty simple that way. So the first one is what's your goal? What do you want to accomplish? So you identify what the dream is. Within that, you ask like, where are you now? And that gives you the

Dr. Travis Parry (18:20.09)
What? Why?

Dr. Travis Parry (18:26.945)
I love it.

Tom Jackobs (18:39.138)
the gap between where they are and where they want to be. So we identify that. Then we go into the why, which is why is it important for you to reach this goal? And this is probably the most important question because we get to an emotional reason. And I see this in the clients that I coach to this day and I keep bringing, have to bring them back to becoming more emotional driven in the sales conversation.

lot of us, we stay up in the head way too much and the logical brain will not allow you to buy the emotion. You buy with emotion and you justify it with logic. So if the salesperson is only in the logical brain, it's going to be a lot harder to justify. But if you're in an emotional state, then it's like, yeah, I need this because it's like, I really need this. So

getting people into that emotional state with that why. And then the second what is what have you tried in the past? So now we get a series of failures because clearly what they tried in the past didn't work or else they wouldn't be talking to you. And then the last one, which I love this last question and it eliminates the whole let me think about it. And that is why is now the right time for you to make a change? And then they tell you why they need you now.

which is exactly where you want them to be. that's so the what why what why is that little mini framework that a lot of people just they're questioning a lot of salespeople gloss over they don't get to that emotional state so that's one of the main points that I really drive home with my clients.

Dr. Travis Parry (20:28.889)
You know, Tom, something I was thinking about as you were talking about this is a lot of small business owners, know, even, large businesses that may outsource, coaching or consulting or health fitness training, whatever it is, they struggle with connecting the original founders intent with the sales team, with the sales people and

I've seen this a lot with business owners I've coached. I've seen it as we've grown our sales team. and you know, an AI is a great helper. I love that you, you know, kind of show this, like we still need humans. We just need, you know, quicker speed of human connection. And I mean, I record all of my sales calls and stuff, and I actually look back and, and I have some AI that tells me this is how much time you did talk. This is how much time they spoke.

Tom Jackobs (21:24.952)
Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (21:28.193)
And I look at that and I evaluate and like, okay. How am I doing? Because as a coach, I find that a lot of times at least long time ago when I was getting, you know, some training on this and people were evaluating how I was doing. I, found that, a lot of times because I thought I knew what I was talking about. I would interject a lot and I would start coaching them in the sales process. And so, and I think sometimes, yeah, you're like, oh my

Fatal flaw, right? Fatal flaw. But the feedback I got was like, if you do that, they're going to get what they think is the solution. And then they're going to say, bye, that was so nice of you to help me out for free. And I realized that that's exactly what's happening. But anyway, these are two separate issues, there's a human component here looking at the psychology of selling. And you're exactly right. I can...

that most people buy with emotion and they justify with the logic. Some people will buy with logic because they're just so analytical period. But most people, most people and you know Russell Brunson talks about this and other you know great salespeople but how... Well let me ask this question, let me phrase this right. The question answer, this format that you just gave us, do you find...

that that really connects this gap of original intent of the founder, the culture, you know, the business with the sales people. Because I know this is a huge issue for most business owners that I talk to.

Tom Jackobs (23:05.41)
Yeah, so the founder or the CEO sets the direction, sets the strategy, sets kind of the culture as well. And so any good that's hired should fit that same culture.

And the what why what why structure of asking questions is really universal. And you could be a B2B or B2C salesperson. And it's the same thing. And I think a lot of especially B2B salespeople think selling with heart. What's that all about? I'm selling to a Fortune 500 company. Yeah, you are. And who's sitting across from you? Another human being with desires and wants and problems. So it's you absolutely need to, you know,

get into the emotion and whether that's the founder intended that to happen or not, it's the reality of how sales are actually made is getting to that emotional. Whether you're selling a computer software, computer machine, or a service, or especially health and wellness.

Dr. Travis Parry (24:15.915)
Absolutely. And that's what I was hoping you would say. Because it sounds like to me, you could take that framework and literally use it for any industry is my understanding. But I'm not the sales guy. I've been in very much selling financial services, coaching services for my entire career. So selling things that aren't...

tangible, I'm telling intangibles and that is that seems like, know, for me, at least like we really had to connect on the emotional side. You know, I'm not sure what it's like to sell oil and gas or, or sell steel for manufacturing companies or, whatever, you know, things that are these tangible objects. but, yeah, I think that that's, that's incredible. Like when we talk about scaling, to be able to then have a system that everybody can follow.

that will still replicate that culture of the business. I know that's a very big issue and I appreciate you talking about that. Go ahead.

Tom Jackobs (25:21.346)
Yeah, no, mean, it's important too, to, you know, as a culture to come up with the stories of the people that you've helped in the founders story as well, because that becomes important for people to connect with the brand and with the company. But at the end of the day, you're connecting human to human. So you need that emotional drive and that connection with the other human, the prospect that you're.

that you're speaking to, whether you're selling steel or selling workouts.

Dr. Travis Parry (25:55.523)
Yeah, love it. Love it. So, you you talked to us about your framework, the thing that's probably the most important. What have you seen is, you know, a couple of maybe one or two things that business owners do that kind of mess that up. What are the pitfalls? What do they do to, you know, if they're trying this system that they fail at and why?

Tom Jackobs (26:21.346)
Well, I deal with a lot of coaches and medical providers that want to help people heal people, you know, and what you said earlier is exactly what we're we're going in here right now is the coaching what while you're trying to sell, that is a sales killer. And for exactly the reason that you said you give them a little bit of hope. And they think that they can do it on their own and then they they try it on their own and they fail. And then they're like,

He didn't know what he was talking about. Why did I even try that? I'm not going back there. But they didn't have the full framework. They didn't have the full program that's going to guide them through. And so what I teach is the concept of building tension and that what, why, what, why framework builds tension through, you know, if you think about a story arc, you know, the

Dr. Travis Parry (26:52.547)
Didn't work.

Tom Jackobs (27:17.432)
hero goes on this journey and there's villains there and there's a guide and he has all these problems that happen and he has to resolve them. So it's like tension, tension, tension, tension, tension. And then the dilemma happens, the climax. And then it's that relief after. Well, what happens in the sales process, if you break that tension.

And so you ask though, Oh, what's your goal? I want to make a 10,000 dollars a month. Okay, great. Oh, yeah, my program's definitely going to help you with that because we're going to do marketing, we're going to do sales, we're going to do this and this and this tension just went down. So now you have to start over. And now, you know, it's kind of goes up and down and now, you know, it's kind of here. And that's not, you know, it's like mid midway. And that's not a good place to be. You want that peak of tension.

I love to study comedians because they are really good. Well, the good ones anyway, are really good at intention and you can tell it in their storytelling and they might be telling and I've dealt with this in terms of helping clients with their storytelling as well, because that's a big part of sales and they might have this really terrible origin story of something that happened.

Dr. Travis Parry (28:15.673)
You're right.

Tom Jackobs (28:36.878)
you know, near death experience or a really horrific childhood or things like that. And so we we build that tension and you can feel that in the audience. And then we break that tension and then there's laughter. And you think, well, oh, my gosh, you're telling about a near death experience and all these people are laughing. Yes. And you want that because that is the break in tension. And, you know, storytellers and comedians are really good at that because they build up that tension and then they release it with.

the punchline. And then you can see and everybody that release comes through in laughter, or you know, sometimes in tears as well. Maybe not a comedy show, but movie that releases that tension that's, you know, then you have that emotional response to it. And that's what you want in that that sales in the what why what why process takes you through that. But the moment that you start coaching and trying to solve the problem at that point,

you break that tension and the result isn't going to be as great. When you go through the presentation, that's when you solve the problem.

Dr. Travis Parry (29:46.147)
think this is key because a lot of business owners, either they, they, they, really don't like sales. I want to get out as fast as they can. Or I see the other side too, where they're really good at it. So they delegate everything else, but they stay in the sales process and, they think they're really good at it, right. Or they enjoy it or they enjoy it, you know, meeting with people or whatever excites them. and what, what I tend to find is because they can't disconnect.

Sometimes they're actually getting in their own way in the sales process because of exactly what you just mentioned. But if you have somebody who's not the fixer, the coach, the mentor or whatever, they can default to, I actually don't know. I don't know how, I just know what, why, what, why. maybe they know a little bit, but they're not qualified to share.

Tom Jackobs (30:18.99)
Yep.

Dr. Travis Parry (30:41.497)
There is a level because of that disconnect, not only with the tension that stays there, but also a level of, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, uh, I can't think of it right now, but, not, not tension, but kind of a, a step up in authority or, yeah, I'm really struggling with that word, but they can say, you know, you've got it. You've got to rely on the mentor now. So in that story arc, there is always a mentor.

There's always somebody that comes in to help the hero in the hero's journey. And you know, in this case, you know, they, they could, they could refer to like, well, this is the mentor and you're the hero. You're the hero, but this is the mentor and you don't talk to him about that or her or whatever. So I have found that, that, that tension there can also be between, you know, an outside salesperson versus the business owner himself. And when the business owner gets on, like,

Tom Jackobs (31:10.99)
Yes.

Tom Jackobs (31:18.722)
Thank you. Thank you very much.

Tom Jackobs (31:37.912)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (31:40.397)
That tension actually is released because now I can ask him all the questions and get some info.

Tom Jackobs (31:44.791)
Yeah, no.

Well, and to that point as well, when the business owner is doing the sales, and I'm guilty of this at times as well, you know, we want we want to help them and we have all we have all the the facility to to make decisions during that sales conversation. And and we make bad decisions. So like, oh, I'll give you a discount. I'll do this, do that. And you basically you know,

cannibalize your own your own sales. And while I was really good at my fitness center, I had a 90 % close rate. And it used to be the joke around the staff. When somebody came in, they're like, Oh, we got a new client. And it was even before I used to you know, nine times out of 10, I'd be going for the contract on the printer in 30 minutes. So finally, I was like,

Dr. Travis Parry (32:32.493)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (32:39.277)
Yeah, that's great.

Tom Jackobs (32:43.298)
I'm too busy. I need to hire somebody to do the sales. And so I asked my, my lead coach to do the sales and she was like, no, not interested. Don't want I was like, well, if you want to work here, you're to have to do sales. And it's like, okay, I'm interested now. And so I gave her the, trained her up on the script, the what, why, what, why, and it was a little bit different back then, but same, same process. She has a 95 % close rate because she was detached from the outcome.

Dr. Travis Parry (32:56.27)
Ha!

Dr. Travis Parry (33:08.665)
Wow.

Dr. Travis Parry (33:12.217)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Tom Jackobs (33:13.62)
I was too attached to the outcome and I wanted to make that sale. She was like, I hate sales. I don't want to do this. I'm just going to have a conversation with this person and boom, they all sign up. was like, that's a good one.

Dr. Travis Parry (33:25.517)
Yes. Okay. And I thought Tom, as you were talking about this, I thought about the word that I, was on the tip of my tongue for forever and I couldn't figure it out. Leverage. She had leverage. The leverage to say, I don't know, ask Tom, you know, like if you work with him, you know, this is what's going to happen. This is the outcome, but you know, she doesn't have to know everything, which is, which is fascinating because I think sometimes we think that we have to hire people that are going to 10 X our time. mean, quite honestly, if you could get out of your own way,

Tom Jackobs (33:34.082)
Lever, yeah. Yep.

Dr. Travis Parry (33:55.211)
and 10x your business, you know, and you can build a sales team and you don't need, you know, a sales floor. I've worked on sales floors back in the day and there were hundreds of us and you know, wow, you know, those are back in the day, but a lot of those sales floor have closed, you know, quite honestly, a lot of the mentors I've seen is say, Hey, you really need one or two. And that, that, that, really suffice, you know, on, helping you in your business, have one or two people.

Tom Jackobs (34:19.15)
Thank

Dr. Travis Parry (34:24.129)
And that has really worked for me as well. So I love this. Okay. So if you're a small business owner or any, any, you know, midsize whatever, and you want to 10 X your sales, you want to grow. obviously, you know, the, heart framework really focused there on the questioning and that, that, that story arc. And I know that, that, we do some things wrong. We know we start to coach. We, don't maybe ask what we should. We don't use that leverage by, you know, hiring someone else, but

Tom Jackobs (34:24.771)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (34:53.741)
What can business owners do? What are the one or two, three things that if they can try this now will get them to really see how this heart system works? What are the first couple of things?

Tom Jackobs (35:07.682)
Yeah, definitely understanding the questioning. And I think that's the biggest skill to build is questioning and actively listening to the answers that the prospect get. Because it's the questioning, and I tell my clients this all the time, the questioning isn't really for you. The questioning is for the prospect. Because a lot of times, especially in health and wellness,

It's the first time that that prospect has verbalized what the problem is to somebody else. And oftentimes the first time they said it out loud. And that's very powerful because then it becomes real when it comes out of your mouth. And they end up going, wow, this problem is big enough. I really do need to solve this.

And so they do the job for you. You don't need to really work. You're just asking questions. It's like they're doing all the work for you. They're selling themselves. And that's the beautiful part, because that's it doesn't feel like you're pushing somebody to do something. And you can't do that anyway. You can't convince somebody to do something because you just have to lead them to the water and get the help that they deserve to have.

Dr. Travis Parry (36:22.733)
really get good at asking the right questions and zipping the mouth, staying quiet, listening. Right? That is, again, that was a hard one for me. I actually had a coach who, she would practice this with me and on the phone she said, listen, the best way you're going to do this is when I'm answering, mute yourself. So I would just mute myself.

Tom Jackobs (36:23.362)
So really.

Tom Jackobs (36:30.305)
Shut up.

Dr. Travis Parry (36:50.577)
Sometimes I've done this on when I'm interviewing and I did this earlier on the podcast I realized I was agreeing with so much of what you're saying and laughing them like I'm distracting so I muted myself for just a second and I found that that's that's That can be a way to help obviously if you're in person There's really no great way to mute yourself, but you know if we could really get good at that question answer and listening I absolutely agree that is quality stuff

What would be the next thing? What would be the next step you would say?

Tom Jackobs (37:22.898)
following up. that's, that's the other thing that people just don't do enough of, you know, the, you know, follow up is, is where the fortune is. Right. So it's more than just one touch. You can't just call one, one time and expect them to call you back. And especially if it's a new lead coming in off of cold traffic, you know, if it's a Facebook ad or Google ad or something like that, you need to

You know, be persistent and consistent to get that person on your calendar because they're reaching out. They're in pain for something. There's a problem that they want to solve and it's your duty and obligation to get ahold of them so that you can help them solve that problem. Because if you don't, somebody else will and they probably won't do as good a job as you would. And that person is not going to get the results that they ultimately want. So follow up.

Dr. Travis Parry (38:15.907)
Yeah, no, I like that. I remember when Russell Brunson really brought this up to he talked, you know, I follow him a lot for sales and marketing. But he's always talking about, it's our duty as business owners, if we have a solution to find those people. And I think this this goes right in line with with your whole process of, you know, of selling with heart is like, this needs to be our intention to really, you know, find those people and help them.

Because otherwise if we have the greatest thing and nobody knows nobody knows They're not gonna find you they don't know where you are and that's that's really half the battle right is just you know the market and the sales part but when you get them in and you have these conversations if your sales cycle is is you know, sales process is less than great You're gonna lose a lot of money through the marketing channels that you're you know that you're doing so really great thing

Anything else stand out to you today, Tom, that you would like to share? you know, kind of a final thought or idea or anything that's been coming to you just been dying to say?

Tom Jackobs (39:19.04)
or I.

Tom Jackobs (39:23.138)
You know what? I've I think I've exhausted all of my frameworks that are like the most cutting edge. won't say necessarily cutting edge, but yeah, the the what, what, why listening and then just being present with that prospect showing that they're they're being heard and they're being seen. And that that in and of itself is a big win because there's so much

Dr. Travis Parry (39:29.443)
Yeah

Tom Jackobs (39:52.866)
disconnection in this world today that even though we're so connected, we're disconnected. so having being heard being seen is a real gift that you can give to somebody.

Dr. Travis Parry (40:05.997)
wonderfully said for that not the principle for any relationship right any relationship out there I love that thank you for sharing thank you for being so passionate about what you do I got your book selling with heart I already got it on audible and I'm it's in the queue if people out there want to know how to how to find you or find your book where would you direct them

Tom Jackobs (40:18.67)
I got your book.

Tom Jackobs (40:31.894)
Yeah, so my website is tomjackobs.com. And the book is on Amazon. Heart is an acronym. So it's H.E.A.R.T. So when you search Amazon, the book is up there. I think it's also on Barnes and Noble as well.

grab the book there and it's definitely on audible and I'm the narrator as well so had a lot of fun reading the book.

Dr. Travis Parry (41:03.533)
I love that. And I suggest that for all of my clients who are writing books, like you be the voice because people connect with you. If you're, you're, if you're going to ask them to be your client, you want them to hear your voice. so I love that. Thank you. I'm excited to, to listen to the rest of this and get to these gold nuggets to help me and my team, grow and 10 XR sales. Thanks for being here, Tom. Thanks for being willing to share.

Tom Jackobs (41:19.39)
And so I.

Dr. Travis Parry (41:31.899)
and to be a thought leader out here in the industry.

Tom Jackobs (41:35.618)
Thank you very much for having me Travis, I really appreciate it.

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