Dr. Travis Parry (00:03.51)
Welcome to another episode of the Travis Parry show. Today I am with Tim Metzner. Tim is a phenomenal guest already. I know this in, in fact, because we've had some great conversations about healthy business perspectives of founders. He is powered by faith and an amazing wife. He loves being a dad of four. He has founded five companies and he's now an investor.

and other companies out there. he kind of knows what he's talking about when it comes to business and founding and leaving companies. He also believes that entrepreneurs can change the world by creating jobs and culture. We're gonna be talking all about these things today. Tim, welcome to the Travis Parry Show.

Tim Metzner (00:51.765)
Awesome, thanks for having me Travis.

Dr. Travis Parry (00:53.662)
Absolutely. So exciting. I love talking to other professionals who just get it. You get it. But before we get into all the fun stuff, tell us how did you get to this point? How did you become dad, investor, know, founder of five companies? Tell us a little bit about your story in your own words, my friend.

Tim Metzner (01:14.466)
Sure, it is by the grace of God all of it. Like let's just start there because that's the honest truth is like there's, you the answer to that is like, man, I have no idea. That's the reality. I mean, the winding journey I've been on, no one could have predicted. And it started in college when my first co-op was with a startup.

And so I was in a program really built to train the future leaders for Procter & Gamble and Kroger and some of these great organizations we have here in the Cincinnati area. And I met a founder who had just sold his first company. He was starting a second company and he hired me as a co-op. I was 19 years old, had no idea what I was doing.

And by the end of that experience, I knew for sure like this is what I was ruined from having a real job. Like this is like starting companies, being a part of an environment like this with someone who is like mission driven and believed that he could build a company that could create value and help people. like, yes, that. How do I do more of that for the rest of my career? So that's effectively what I've done. I've been building companies ever since then, starting as employee number five at that first startup going back to.

the early 2000s and...

You know, as you mentioned, sort of now having started a number of them myself and get to kind of jump to the other side of the table as an investor. So serial entrepreneur, feel like super fast learning curve being in a startup environment where I just for five or seven years, like learned a ton as an operator and got to the point where I felt like I kind of hit the ceiling on what I was going to learn as an employee, an early employee of a startup and like, okay, it's time to go found. And really it was a God moment where I feel like God spoke to me.

Tim Metzner (02:57.154)
really clearly. It's like it's time to go and you know I'd been praying for like put me in coach like I'm ready. I really think I'm supposed to go start a company like put me in coach like where do we go and like finally honestly like what God told me Travis this is like one of the first times I ever heard clear in my life from God he said just go what are you waiting for and I'm like I don't know how about an idea and he's like just trust me man and so literally like put my two weeks in after that experience and

I had some great relationships and connections and had a little bit of consulting on the side. So I knew I wasn't starting at zero, but I didn't know what I was starting is the truth and made that leap of faith as it were. thankfully I had a very supportive wife who knew she married an entrepreneur and didn't know exactly when that was going to happen or how it was going to happen and didn't know what I was going to build. But she's like, I trust you. I knew this is inevitable. So that was that first leap into the unknown.

You know, my story has now been a couple times over this experience of...

It's almost like calling as a two-step process for me, I'm first sort of called away from, called into the unknown before he actually unveils what that next step on the path might be. So that's the super quick abstract journey, but that led me to starting a company called Differential that was a technology consulting firm. built custom software. Out of that, we built a studio where we were launching our own products. We spun out a company called Astronomer, which

is now internet famous or infamous for the CEO at the Coldplay concert. Unfortunately, not my co-founder or my partner, but after we sold our shares in the business, a few years later, that incident happened.

Tim Metzner (04:43.254)
At least people know what that company is now, but that was one of the companies we spun out of the lab and differential. I left differential and then started an insurance company called Coterie focused on small business insurance where we built technology and we built insurance with data and technology as the core. So the way you would build a modern insurance company today, if you were starting from scratch is what we did. And I started an accelerator here in Cincinnati called Ocean. It was the first faith based venture accelerator. So we were

training people to build venture-backed, high-tech, high-growth technology companies. But we were doing that with this angle of like, man, I don't want Travis to lose his marriage and his identity and his meaning and his worth and have that all tied to his business. Like, I hope he wins. We're going to help do everything we can to help him build a great company. But whether he's successful or he fails, we're going to prepare him for both sides of that coin throughout this journey, not just invest capital. So that was the accelerator I built. And then after all of that,

left to launch FireRoad which is...

this vision of being the investor I wish I had very early on who could, you know, both help me in those really tactical day to day, like I don't know what to do here. and also be a supportive, you know, founder or investor across the table, asking my founders about their family and their spirituality and their, you know, their health and their vibrancy, not just their, their business KPI. So, that's been a really fun journey. So fire road is the newest company. The first part of that is building a venture fund.

we're operating out of our first fund. So we raised a $5 million pre-seed fund where we invest 1 to 200K into startup founders who are building technology for AI resistant categories. So our founders are building like AI and automation for categories like construction and services and...

Tim Metzner (06:36.082)
and trades and these sort of like, again, I call them like AI resistant categories. We're building this technology to help scale those kind of businesses. So that's that's FireRode.

Dr. Travis Parry (06:47.468)
Man, that is an impressive resume, my friend. That is very impressive. I can see that you caught the bug very early on that you're going to do business in a different way. you know, I, I caught several things here. One that, you believe as I do that having an amazing and supportive spouse really is one of the biggest keys to success in business and balance. Right. But that also that,

Tim Metzner (06:52.309)
haha

Tim Metzner (07:12.332)
It is. Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (07:17.022)
Most of what we do is we're following what we think God wants us to be doing. We feel fulfilled. We feel that we are, you know, living our best lives, our purpose, our mission. And I love that about you. That's, that's phenomenal. that, that, that has really driven you as, as a, as a business owner and investor and founder. and I love, you know, some of these businesses, obviously the one I'm going to kind of.

Tim Metzner (07:29.4)
Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (07:44.267)
A focus in on is, this accelerator where you really, you caught the vision of it's business. Isn't just about money, right? Founding and running a healthy business really depends on having healthy individuals. Those who are well rounded, balanced, who don't lose their family. coincidentally, other company that you already sold.

Tim Metzner (07:54.307)
Right.

Dr. Travis Parry (08:12.058)
It seems like he, you know, the, the founder, the, the, I don't even know if he's the CEO. He's not the CEO of astronomer anymore, right? He's, he's yeah. Okay. Making a former CEO, right? the guy formerly known as right. it's that's unfortunate. And that whole situation has really blown up social media and, but it has really put a spotlight on those who are doing things, right. We're following principles and values.

Tim Metzner (08:19.756)
No, correct. The former CEO.

Tim Metzner (08:30.423)
It is.

Tim Metzner (08:39.234)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (08:41.314)
You don't just have short-term wins or short-term losses. It is the long-term. So I appreciate that that is something that you, you have really latched onto and that you also want to invest in founders to help them be healthier, help them not just have, you know, a great balance sheet. So I kind of want to bring this back and ask you, um, what have you seen as far as the main issues that these founders that are trying to grow and scale?

Tim Metzner (08:45.614)
That's right.

Dr. Travis Parry (09:11.09)
no matter what industry that you've helped them in, but what are some of these core issues that they really struggle with that you've seen while you've helped them in the accelerator and in the investing world?

Tim Metzner (09:18.86)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (09:27.98)
Man, the couple that seemed to be kind of most recurring to me, I would say it actually is tied to something you said before. said like, can tell you decided that because you were sort of, this is a God-driven journey, like you feel like you're following the call.

One of the things we screen for in our founders is like, we want to back mission driven founders. Like I want to back founders who are building, who are solving a problem that they care deeply about. That is a beautiful thing. And it's not always tied to faith. And for me it is, right? Like I do feel like God has called me to the work I've done.

Here's the other side of that though. When you are building something that you believe you've been called to build, the risk of tying your identity completely, getting your identity wrapped up completely in the success or failure of that business is really high. And as weird as it might sound, the struggle with balance I've found to be even more severe because this happens to pastors all the time. Like if you're leading a church that's growing rapidly,

You do the same thing that entrepreneurs do who are chasing a business that's growing rapidly, which is like you immerse yourself in it. And you look up and you realize like, holy cow, man, I've been ignoring the home front, right? I haven't been the husband I wanna be. I haven't been the father I wanna be. I haven't been the friend and the son I wanna be. And...

you convince yourself that that is because you're doing the Lord's work. Whether that's a pastor of a church or it's building a company, you feel like God called you to build solving problems, you feel like God called you to solve, it's like, man, I should never stop working if I'm doing the work I'm supposed to be doing, right? And I think that's a beautiful thing because it does keep us motivated. And I think oftentimes you find like that motivation is not tied to finances, although oftentimes we do hope there's a financial outcome on the other side of that.

Tim Metzner (11:25.568)
driven by something more deep than finance and it is a great motivator and also a great challenge. And so I think the risk of identity being fully wrapped up in the success or failure of your business and the risk of just convincing yourself that you should never stop working because this is a calling, those are two of the greatest challenges we face.

Dr. Travis Parry (11:48.139)
Yeah. Yet at the same time, it's those with that drive, with that passion that this is a calling, right? And they recognize this is an identity. Notice I said an identity. Unfortunately, they allow themselves. I, I've seen this a lot too, where business owners, you know, they, they really kind of pour themselves so much into the business that it becomes their only identity.

Tim Metzner (12:03.447)
Right.

Dr. Travis Parry (12:17.834)
or their most important identity. Yet when I've actually sat down with business owners and founders about where their priorities are, I talked about this in my first book, Achieving Balance, but when I actually sit down and ask them, where are your priorities? It's usually God and their health and their relationships. They all come in some form or fashion before their business. Of course, the business is a big part.

Tim Metzner (12:18.371)
Right.

Dr. Travis Parry (12:45.142)
But when it really comes down to comparing and contrasting, they, when push comes to shove, those other things really do come before the business. Yet that's where the stress is. I found that that's where they like, it seems like that is where the rub like, no, I'm, this guy, but, but I'm also a dad, know, like your title, you know, you know, your husband, dad founder, like, yeah, you have all these titles, but then how.

Tim Metzner (13:00.93)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (13:14.614)
do you show up in these areas and how much and how can you sort of balance this? Yeah, so that is a really great point, Tim. I don't know if you wanna speak to that and reply or if there's other areas in which you've seen that yeah, founders also struggle.

Tim Metzner (13:18.53)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (13:34.06)
Yeah, I would say like, so if this is a struggle, like let's talk about the other side of that. Like what's the ante?

How do we come against that struggle of having your identity fully wrapped up in it? Or I agree with you, I would say, and many people would say, God first, then my family, and my wife and my kids, and then business and community. And yet, if that's true, then my calendar should reflect that. And if I'm honest, that is not true, right? If I look at the hours of my day, like...

business looks like it's first, right? Like the amount of time I spend working on most days looks like that is the top priority. so that's a challenge. mean, think that right there alone is one of those things that we wrestle with deeply. We're like, man, I say one thing, but I know on a given day, I'm not necessarily giving the same amount of time and energy to my family and my kids. And...

you know, that's sort of the way work has been designed. And I'm not even saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying, think that truth is something we wrestle with deeply because we know that. And so one of the things I have found to be really effective in battling these two things, identity and...

how I spend my time, sort of the risk of being fully immersed in business is having a small group. And so this is one of things I've done for myself is formed a small group of entrepreneurs. And I think for me, entrepreneurs is a really important part of this because they understand these are people who are just as passionate as I am about the work they're doing. They feel called to build these companies and these nonprofits and the things that they're running after. And yet they also would say the same thing I would say, which is like, hey, this thing is not the most important thing in my life.

Tim Metzner (15:23.608)
great, well let's hold each other to account in that and talk about it on a regular basis. And Travis, if you're struggling with that this week for whatever reason, like please don't struggle with that alone. Like let's talk about that on Thursday morning when we get together in our small group. Like let's make sure we have time and space to process that together. And I can call out the lies that you're probably telling yourself and you're going to do the same for me over time. Right. So I think just having a space where we have a common framework, which is like we're

running after the kingdom of God, we're believers who also are parents and spouses and those things are really important to us. We also happen to be entrepreneurs building businesses that are creating value and solving real problems, but we're going to talk about that in the context of these other things that are really important to us and when we start with that as a foundation and we have a normal place and space.

to have that conversation, I think it changes the game. At least it has for me. So that's been one of the biggest ways I've come against that.

Dr. Travis Parry (16:24.554)
Yeah, I love that. mean, I, in my coaching, do something very similar. I've got a mastermind type of, you know, offering where, you know, that we come together every Tuesday and we talk about the struggles, but what we're actually doing toward it and the actions and get feedback from each other. I hold each other accountable. I think that's really important.

one of the things I also outlined in, achieving balance kind of goes back to these younger days of mine where, you mentioned this, it's the time, like how do you justify all this time? Cause quite honestly, time is our greatest asset as a business owner. It is our greatest single most. mean, we want to replicate ourselves. We can't, we want to be Superman and we want to solve everything and we can't spin the world back around to solve that problem. Right.

So what do we do? And then eventually we create systems. And I'm a big systems believer and it sounds like you are too. But what I have found is the system that works best is how do I work in my sweet spot? How do I work in the area that makes the most valuable sense for the business and I'm most fulfilled? Then take all the other wasted time and not do those things. Delegate, delete it, you know.

Tim Metzner (17:42.339)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (17:47.171)
Or automate it now, right? We can use automation with so many things. delete it if you don't need it, automate it if you can. And if you can't give it to a team member, now you delegate it, but even then ask them to automate it. Like it's, it's crazy. But I found that when you do that, now all of sudden you have more time. This idea, like just like with you, when you were 19 and you came to this job, you didn't realize the world of founding a business and starting and running.

Tim Metzner (17:50.507)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim Metzner (17:57.923)
Yes.

Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (18:16.866)
probably even existed until you got there. But what I think is that because of we are used to the 40 hour work week or really the 50 to 60, okay, work week is we just kind of justify, I've got to work. And if I'm not at work, it's not working. But if we have systems in place, we don't have to work all those hours. We can be flexible. We can go on vacation. We can be there for the ball games, for the...

Tim Metzner (18:19.212)
Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Tim Metzner (18:27.629)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (18:34.552)
That's right.

Dr. Travis Parry (18:44.886)
ballet performances for weddings and funeral. Like we can be there because if you set up your business correctly, you don't need to be there all the time. You just need to be there enough to set it up. So I know I'm preaching to the choir because you've literally founded five and left five. Talk to me about systems. How have systems and managing your time well out, how do you see that or have seen that with you or?

Tim Metzner (18:51.918)
Hmm.

Tim Metzner (18:57.037)
Yep.

Tim Metzner (19:01.347)
Yes, sir.

Dr. Travis Parry (19:13.856)
or those that you're mentoring really affect how healthy their business is.

Tim Metzner (19:19.682)
Yeah. So for founders in particular, there is a really basic tool that I'm sure you're familiar with. It's Eisenhower's matrix. Right. Like it's a quadrant and we just look at two basic things like one is urgency and one is importance. Right. And if we start to actually map out the things in front of us in those, you know, on that matrix.

it becomes a lot more clear what are the things I need to own versus what are the things I need to kill or delegate, right? Because it's like, if it is not urgent and not important, like you ought to just kill the thing, right? If it's urgent and important, like that's something I need to own. That is probably something that uniquely is suited for my time and attention. And so I think just running that, regularly running our list of things through that.

Matrix I found to be like really, really powerful. It's just like a tactical, practical tool that founders can use on a very regular basis when they're struggling with like, man, I don't know how to spend this day, right? Or what to flip over the wall to someone else. So that's, that one's been actually quite powerful, not just for me, but for most of the founders I work with. There's another one that is more,

more of a mental release than anything. I call it the fire's burning list. And it's basically like when you're building something, what we both know is like.

There is no day where you flip the screen down on the laptop and you go like, I did everything there was to do today. All of it, it's done. There's nothing else I could possibly do to it. It's not a thing. It's not a thing in any job really probably. for sure for entrepreneurs we know there is not a day where you shut it down and you go like, I don't have to worry about anything. I am starting with a blank slate tomorrow. And so.

Tim Metzner (21:11.074)
What we start to realize and actually I think Reid Hoffman said this is where I got the fires burning idea. Reid Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn would say.

you know, every single day when you shut down, there are fires burning in every direction and you just gotta let them burn. Like you just have to. And so I was like, you know, there are always these nagging things that like, I know I'm just not doing well or that need to be solved, but not right now. And so I've found that literally just having a list to put those things on and going like, all right, that is there. It's not going to get dropped at some point.

it's gonna bubble back up on that matrix to the urgent and important and like now I'm gonna tackle it. But at least I know it's not lost, it's somewhere and we'll revisit that list on a regular basis. I found it to be helpful for me but I actually have found it to be even more helpful for early hires at startups I've been a part of where like especially folks who have not been in this fast paced high growth environment where they're just struggling with like my list is insane and we're doing all these things wrong and like, I'm like hey, hey, hey, hey, Travis, it's okay.

put it on the list, like we're gonna put it on the fires burning list, we're gonna talk about it next week and we'll figure out should we actually spend time solving this problem. So pretty tactical things, but I found those two tools to be actually really powerful.

Dr. Travis Parry (22:25.602)
So I 100 % agree like the the fire it will always burn it will always burn in fact one of the biggest questions I get from my clients is how do I turn it off? How do I turn it off? And you know at first I used to try to help people just turn it off But the more I've realized in my study of psychology is that we don't ever really turn anything off It's always there

Tim Metzner (22:40.014)
Mmm.

Tim Metzner (22:54.03)
Mmm.

Dr. Travis Parry (22:55.722)
We tend to just decompartmentalize things, especially as men. I'm talking about men, male business owners. Like we can put things away and we can do that. In fact, you know, I'm not trying to be crass or anything, but they've done a lot of studies with men and intimacy. Man, they could have had a hard day at work. They could have failed at everything. They could have, you know, bankruptcy, like all these things, like crazy things that could have happened.

But if his wife is, is ready for intimacy, like we can decompartmentalize everything and put it all away. Say that's fine. Let's go. And that's healthy. Actually. It's very, very healthy. and we can talk all about that, you know, as far as like stress reliever and connector with, with your spouse, it's super, super important. but, I, kind of use that same idea as like, you don't have to turn it off. Just put it away.

Tim Metzner (23:32.462)
Right. Yeah. It's go time. Yes. Right.

Dr. Travis Parry (23:55.255)
just put it away. I'm gonna tell my kids to put their toys away every day, like put their stuff away. You can bring it back out tomorrow. It's okay. It's still gonna be there. But yeah, but I think this actually comes back to your identity thing earlier on of, well, if that's our only identity, then we'll never put it away. And in fact, this is where I think business owners burn out. They have this pride.

Tim Metzner (23:59.182)
Hahaha.

Right. It'll be there. Right.

Dr. Travis Parry (24:22.146)
We wear it as a badge of courage, a kind of a badge of honor of like, look at me, I'm going to sleep at the office and wake up at 4 a.m. And we have people even shaming others like, hey, if you're not here at four, you're not really a business owner. And like, that's not how this works. You must not have a family or children or you care about your community. Like we're supposed to be people that are, you know, a part of this world. So.

Tim Metzner (24:26.253)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (24:36.514)
Right? Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (24:48.112)
I also love the Eisenhower matrix. In fact, that's what actually got me started in writing my first book is cause I just couldn't follow it well enough. I found I spent more time trying to organize urgent, non-urgent, you know, you know, so that I felt like I was actually moving things from one side of the desk to the other. And that's all I did that day. Does that make sense? I wonder, I wonder if.

Tim Metzner (25:03.151)
Yes.

Tim Metzner (25:08.526)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, right. Well, that doesn't feel productive.

Dr. Travis Parry (25:14.378)
Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if you struggled with that or if other founders that you've like, Hey, I tried them Eisenhower matrix. If they've said, actually, I can't make this work. I'm curious. Cause I've, I've interviewed a lot of people who they've tried some tricks and tips, but they've not really ever put a time management system in order. So

Tim Metzner (25:33.206)
Yeah, that's a really great point. don't know. I've not heard that feedback from others who I've given the tip to. And so I don't know for sure. I suspect you're probably I can totally see that being the case. I think.

maybe one of my superpowers, what I got good at is like, was an instant like, just kind of mental processing. It's not like I actually have a list where I'm like literally moving things. Like as I consider how I'm spending my time, it's like a filter I'm using to evaluate things. And it's almost like this over time, it probably wasn't that way initially. I don't remember when I first started thinking about this, but it did, it has become one of those things where I just sort of automatically filter

Dr. Travis Parry (25:52.962)
Mmm.

Tim Metzner (26:16.462)
things on my plate in that way. And I think I just have a way to kind of mentally compartmentalize without actually physically writing them down. So that is interesting though. I could totally see people struggling with that. Like literally you're just like spending all your time like, I don't know, there's a million things on my list. I guess I should put them all somewhere.

Dr. Travis Parry (26:37.036)
Well, and some people are such list oriented like task to do people. like they feel accomplishment by checking off the list, but you know, that's kind of back to the Eisenhower, know, Cubby used it. He, he, kind of adapted that. It was like, this became the Cubby quadrants and stuff, but you know, it was like, it was like, Hey, am I actually doing the things that are most important? But if I spend more time planning out what it is I should be doing, I

Tim Metzner (26:53.485)
Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (27:05.058)
kind of lose, you know, productivity and the whole purpose. So I actually jumped into a training, that, it was all about getting, getting things done. David Allen and David Crenshaw, who wrote the book, the myth of multitasking. He found out that yes, we can kind of, you know, prioritize things, but what happens for most of us is we're ADD. Hey, that looks good. That looks fun. Let's do that. Let's do this. And with our.

Tim Metzner (27:10.028)
Right.

Tim Metzner (27:19.0)
Yep.

Dr. Travis Parry (27:34.901)
are quote unquote smartphones and our computers that just are constantly trying to get our attention, social media, text messaging, that even if we know what the right thing is to do, we tend to kind of pull ourselves away to those things that aren't as important because we get distracted. Let's talk about that for just a second. What has been, maybe for you or even your groups of founders that you invest in,

Tim Metzner (27:48.792)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (28:03.139)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (28:04.153)
What's some advice about keeping laser focus? Cause it sounds like you have a really good psychology. It sounds like you have a really good way of separating things out. You really, you know, are able to, uh, decompartmentalize very well, which again, it's a good male trait, but for those of us that are at ADD, ADHD, um, out there listening, um, what has helped you or them to stay focused?

Tim Metzner (28:29.422)
I struggle with, I call it shiny object syndrome as much as any entrepreneur probably, where it's just like you have these nonstop thoughts or ideas about things you could go do. And I think it's a blessing in the curse of being an entrepreneur is like, you actually believe you could go do that. It's like I could probably build a company around that. Doesn't mean I should.

Like there's an exercise we did last week with some of our portfolio company founders that my friend led because he's better at it I am. And it's just like.

figuring out what your North Star metric is. What's the thing that actually is driving, and this by the way is not like a business KPI necessarily. There can be KPIs underneath it, but it's like what's the actual main thing? For me it's like I believe God has said use entrepreneurship to grow my kingdom. That is my North Star. believe business can be and should be a force for good in the world. And to me if you do that well and you're a believer, it should also grow the kingdom.

what I've been put on this earth to do. And so that's my North Star. That's the lens I use to evaluate opportunities. Even things like how do I spend my time. You could look at my calendar and why do you have two weekly meetings with small groups of founders?

And I would say like, well, it's because I believe I can help them be more effective as founders. And if I can help them, like the potential for impact is way more significant than just my own time and energy. It's like I'm building into other people who are going to go do things even greater than I could do for sure. Right. So and the reason I can justify that is because like that sounds a lot like using entrepreneurship as a force for good. It doesn't mean I have to build the best, biggest, most impactful company directly.

Dr. Travis Parry (30:11.116)
Nice.

Tim Metzner (30:22.416)
I have been called to build companies and I still am in the arena kind of building, but it is easier for me to go like, yeah, you could argue it's a waste of time spending time with entrepreneurs, some of which I have no stake in their business or I'm not an investor. To me, I would say like,

yes, but I've got this North Star that keeps me driven. And then also as a way to say no to other things, Like if time and energy spent doesn't, I can't check that box of like, yeah, that feels like it is in service of my North Star metric, great. And that, you know, that is very like philosophical for me.

But it also is like very practical for a founder and a business owner. It's like, what was this business created to do? What's the, why do you exist as an organization? Let's make sure we all understand that. And then as we're building, you know, KPIs or setting quarterly rocks or objectives.

let's use that as a way to make sure that we're spending time on the right stuff that is in service of that North Star. like that sounds really simple. It's really hard to do to create alignment amongst your co-founders if you have them and make sure you're all aligned there to keep that front and center and then to organize all the work around that and make sure you're doing like it's especially as an organization grows. found like that is way harder than it sounds like that can consume a lot of time and energy. And so you do have to

Dr. Travis Parry (31:51.393)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (31:54.516)
spend time coming back to that on a regular basis. In fact, like some have said, like, if you don't sound like a broken record as a founder, like you're probably not doing your job right. Cause like you're not reinforcing the same basic thing so that everyone has that same North star that they're running after.

Dr. Travis Parry (32:09.644)
Yeah. I mean, I think you, nailed it. Like learning to say no to the things that you've already decided that's, that's not going to be on the list. Right. having that mental clarity around that is huge. I want to kind of bring us back to what you talked about before about your wife being an amazing support. I'm going to ask you a little bit about that. So how, how has your wife helped you to be a healthy founder?

so that you can have a healthy business. What has been the systems, the secrets, you know, the just the relationship that you and your wife have had and still have that allow you to feel so supported? Because this is big. This is huge in business. And I have found that really the only way that a business owner feels balanced and is able to grow and scale is what you led in your bio is like having

Tim Metzner (32:39.181)
Hmm.

Tim Metzner (33:07.438)
Totally.

Dr. Travis Parry (33:08.502)
having God and your spouse on your side. So curious what's in it with the Metzners.

Tim Metzner (33:15.116)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more because I think this is actually one of the least talked about but most important parts of business building and entrepreneurship. And for me, it started with that very first company when I left the startup to go start differential. Again, I didn't even know what I was going to start. I just knew I was supposed to go start something. The conversation with my wife was like,

Hey, I'm gonna share this experience I just had at church where I feel like God asked me to step out, it's time to go. And she's like, okay, like what are we gonna go do? And I'm like, I'm not exactly sure yet, but I know this is the right direction. And her response was, to her credit, was something to the effect of, I believe in you, I trust you, I know you're called to go do this. Can you just promise me in like six months, if you haven't figured this thing out,

you'll go get a big boy job. I was like, that seems totally fair and logical and rational. Like, yes, I can commit to that. Look, I can promise you in six months, I didn't have things figured out, quote unquote. And she never brought that conversation up again. Like, we never talked about that again. To her credit, she never doubted, she never stopped supporting me. And you know,

I think I probably believed at times for sure, she believed in me more than I did. If I were you, I'd probably be questioning some of these things and wondering where the paycheck's gonna come from. And she didn't. so over time, one of the most healthy habits we have is she can ask at any time about business. She doesn't all that often. But when she does, I have to first...

commit to trying not to be defensive, because it's some challenge.

Tim Metzner (35:09.258)
One of the beautiful things about Christie is like, she will challenge me both ways. Like there are seasons where she has said like, hey, our future is reliant on the success of these like things you're starting. Like, are you running hard enough? Like, are you spending your time in the right ways? Like, are you doing what you need to do to make these things successful? She said that way less often the other side of that, which is like, hey Tim, you said this was a season where you're gonna be sprinting. Like that season is feeling like.

a decade now. I thought we're talking about months. Like it seems like this thing is a forever sprint. When is that going to change? Because

I need some help over here. Like you're not, you haven't been, we've, one of the cool things we'll do is like, we'll talk about it in season. So I'll go like, you know, she knows I'm just starting fundraising right now for fun too, for Fiverr adventures. Like fundraising is a very intense, like it's going to require more travel. It's going to require more time and energy from me. And it's a finite period of time. Like once we start the clock, we will have 18 months to raise our fund. And so what's cool about that is I can literally say there's a season where I'm going to be sprinting hard and there's also a finish line.

that we can talk about. Not everything's that clean, but I think you need to be able to have that conversation with us. And go like, hey, you can't just let it become a forever, like I'm just a founder and that means I'm crazy all the time. It's like, you could be if you allow yourself to be. You could also be more intentional about picking your spots and going like, there's a thing that's really important right now. It's a deadline, it's a customer, it's a fundraise, whatever it is. There's a thing that is really important. It does require a next level from me.

That's a great conversation to have with your spouse because then they can call you on it in a few months and go like, we talked about this season. How's that going? Like where are we at in that? Are we nearing the finish line on this one thing in particular? I think that's really healthy and positive just to have a framework to have those conversations. The other part of that is like burnout comes from us believing we are supposed to be redlining all the damn time and we're not. We're just not built to do that.

Dr. Travis Parry (37:09.634)
Amen. And that's where it comes right there. don't, I mean, I've got books and research about how women are healthier than men. And quite honestly, yeah, yeah. And sorry to cut you off, but this is such an important point. Like men who are no longer married, divorced, widowed, whatever, they tend not to live as long as married men. And the reason is because of the spouse, their support.

Tim Metzner (37:21.644)
Yeah, I believe that, fully.

Dr. Travis Parry (37:38.893)
their love, quite honestly, their health care, what they do for us. And I'm not saying that, you know, I'm a big believer that God loves men and women equally. We have different reasons for being here and different skills and abilities, but we're equal in his eyes, but we are not the same. And that is a good thing. It is a good thing that she looks after us, meaning that, you know, our

Tim Metzner (37:50.508)
Sure.

Tim Metzner (38:01.09)
Yeah.

Yeah, you know how we know this is true? It's like, how do you operate when you're on a business trip? I eat worse and I work way more. Like, I grind till all hours of the night, cause I can, and I eat like crap, like, yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (38:09.348)
that's a joke. Eat out. Exactly. Yeah. Cause you can. Yeah. No, this is exactly right. This is what I mean. Cause if we did that forever, like it would just pile up, right? But we come home and our wives ground us. They help us and they relieve our stress. They work with us and vice versa. We're there to support them. Like we could talk all about what a man's role in a father's role for a whole other hour.

Tim Metzner (38:28.664)
Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (38:36.684)
But I think you nailed it right here, Tim. I just did a whole week in Costa Rica with, know, seven couples and we did this whole retreat about, you know, how we grow and scale business. And, and I got to this one point talking about how, well, where are you in business and w what are, where are you on this playing field of business? And does your spouse know that? Does your spouse know where you are and does your spouse know where you want to go?

Tim Metzner (38:37.25)
Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (39:06.37)
And does he or she support you in that? Oh, wow. The feedback from that one training was this was the best of the entire week. And I was like, what? I just, I found this to be true. And I just have always known that like you need a supportive spouse. But like you said, if you can be upfront with them, this is the period we're in. This is the phase the business is at. You don't have to give all the details.

Tim Metzner (39:31.074)
Yes.

Dr. Travis Parry (39:35.83)
but to be upfront and transparent so that they can support you in it. And I love that you said, you know, pull you back, call you out. So that's still great.

Tim Metzner (39:41.314)
Yes.

We're back, totally. And by the way, I think this actually applies both in the micro and the macro. So what I mean by that is like, these seasons I talked about, they're in the micro. So it's like, hey, there's a sprint phase and you're gonna pull me out of that. And I'm setting expectations and...

Dr. Travis Parry (39:52.695)
Mm.

Tim Metzner (40:03.854)
I want you to agree with me or challenge me on it if you're like, tell me more about why that's so important and why it's worth missing some time at home. That's a great, we can have that conversation and I'm not always great at it, but I'll do my best to not get defensive, right? It's like, I need you to be able to openly challenge me and ask those questions. I need that to be okay. In the macro, what I think so many of us miss is like,

We don't start with the conversation of the finish line. Like, what's enough? What's enough? Like, let's get to a point where like, man, like our salary is good and we're covered and it's like more than I ever thought we were gonna make or whatever. Like, is that enough? You get to your first exit and now you've put some money in the bank and like college for your kids is taken care of and like your wedding, the things that you like worry about as a parent with young kids, like, is that enough? Like.

Dr. Travis Parry (40:59.542)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Metzner (40:59.98)
The second big accident, now we've got a lake house and is that, what are we building for and what's enough? Are we in alignment on that? Because if not, we should have that conversation now before we're decades into this thing and we go like, well, I just thought we were building this company to get to this point and I don't need more, I just want more of your time. I don't want more money digits in the bank or stuff like.

Dr. Travis Parry (41:13.922)
100%.

Dr. Travis Parry (41:23.052)
Right.

Yeah.

Tim Metzner (41:26.58)
I just, now that we've gotten to this level, like, man, I just want you to be more present. Like, well shoot, I wish we would have had that conversation before I started my fifth company, right? Like, are we having that conversation? Because I'm not sure we are frequently enough with our spouse. Or ourselves, frankly.

Dr. Travis Parry (41:38.555)
Yeah. So this brings me to you. Yeah. No, no, dude, you've, you've nailed it. It brings me to really the last question. I hope we're going to have a little bit of time for this. Just a few minutes to round out our conversation is really about legacy. And the question that comes up all the time is what's enough and how do we leave a legacy without entitling our children?

or without creating burnout? Like, do we go back into the burnout phase just to keep putting more digits, like you said, in the bank account? Or like the post I just made today, this is airing much later, but about, you know, so many people are so obsessed about what's in their retirement account that they don't take a vacation. They won't go and spend the time with their kids. And then they go, well, wait a minute. Now they're gone and grown. Well, yeah.

Tim Metzner (42:26.243)
Yeah.

Dr. Travis Parry (42:34.198)
You didn't invest in them while they were growing. You cared more about the retirement account, which is equally like there's importance there. There's priorities, but I think the old way of thinking was she got to sock everything away, not do anything but that one vacation a year for a few days. And then when I'm 65, I'll go on a cruise, but what if you don't make it? What if your family, quite honestly, just distance themselves, your wife, your kids from you. So, you know, for you, Tim,

Tim Metzner (42:37.388)
Yes.

Tim Metzner (42:59.619)
Right.

Dr. Travis Parry (43:01.694)
What's the most important thing about legacy? I mean, you've exited five companies. You've left legacy in business. You left legacy with people you've mentored. But what about your family? what, when you are wrestling with this concept of what's enough, when's enough, you when should I get out? and legacy for my children. What are the things that come to your mind?

Tim Metzner (43:22.04)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (43:30.508)
I love the questions. used, you know, I talk a lot about, my wife and I would talk a lot about multi-generational impacts. Like I want to leave, I want to have a multi-generational impact. And you know, I said that and I think I left it at that and didn't define that a whole lot more for quite a while. And you know, somewhat recently, like my wife came back to that and reminded me of like, she's like, hey, you know, that's not finance, right?

It's like...

We don't need to leave a bunch of money for like our grandkids or our great grandkids. Like that's not multigenerational. That's not the kind of multigenerational impact we should be chasing. Like building relationships with our kids and building into them and empowering them to go be the people that God created them to be. And doing it in a way that will continue to bring them around us and have them be near us as we age. Like I went and listened to the founder of Hobby Lobby Speak and he wrote a book recently.

And he was talking, he said a number, I think the number was 49 or 50, I think it was 50, he's like, okay, what is 50? He's like, that's the number of kids and grandkids that live within like 30 minutes of us. Like all of my children and my grandchildren live near us. I'm like, damn, that is where I'm chasing. Digits and a bank account, cool, I'd love to have some resources and take the financial stress off of us, but man.

If I get to a point where I look around and I realize like my kids and their kids desire to be around us because we're building into them constantly, not because we're, you know, sending them a check, that will have been enough.

Dr. Travis Parry (45:15.778)
That tells me everything I need to know about you. I'm thrilled. Man. business owners need to hear this. They need to know that there are people out here like Tim Metzner that really get it. They understand. at the end of the day, yeah, we want to be successful financially, but really the most important thing is our standing with God.

Tim Metzner (45:40.782)
sure.

Dr. Travis Parry (45:44.033)
As you mentioned, we, want your own children to live up to their potential, what God wants for them. You want them to have a good relationship with you. And of course you'd love to help them financially without entitling them. Like that's what I hear from most business owners. It's like, I don't want to entitle them. I don't want them to be the spoiled brats. We could talk for hours just on this concept and you know, other conversations on my podcast or around this.

Tim Metzner (45:59.586)
That's right.

Tim Metzner (46:03.766)
Yep.

Dr. Travis Parry (46:11.894)
But what I've, what I've found is over and over again is that when we become successful, that becomes the main concern is that I become successful at the cost of what we've taught or not taught our children. And even if we did teach them, how would we prevent something from happening even after we're gone that they become entitled and spoiled brats. So, you know, I, I think that thinking about legacy planning.

Tim Metzner (46:23.982)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Metzner (46:34.798)
brain.

Dr. Travis Parry (46:38.93)
And not just financially, but like your wife said, she's a very wise woman. that it's about the relationships. It's about the family culture that you create. That's what's going to keep for, for years, hundreds of years, even if you came from a rough situation, a bad relationship with parents, grandparents, whatever you can change that. Now you can create a family legacy that will live on for generations. So thank you for sharing this, Tim.

Tim Metzner (46:46.295)
Yeah.

Tim Metzner (46:53.272)
through.

Tim Metzner (47:00.376)
That's right.

Dr. Travis Parry (47:07.554)
Any last words you want to tell us where people can find you or how they can be mentored by you and your cohorts? Tell us a little bit about where they might be able to go and look you up.

Tim Metzner (47:08.003)
Yes.

Tim Metzner (47:21.164)
Sure, yeah, if you're a founder of building technology for AI resistant categories, you should find us at fireroad.io. Look up Fire Road Ventures and let us know what you're building. If you are an entrepreneur or a founder or a builder or a dreamer who wants to be inspired regularly, I write a daily newsletter called The Daily Mo. It's just DailyMo.co. Free to subscribe and you'll just get a really brief sound bite from me and...

you know, some days it's gonna land and it's gonna be the thing you needed exactly. And other days you're gonna go like, eh, it was all right. But when you get the nugget you need, it'll be worth it. And then I write quite a bit on LinkedIn, pretty active on LinkedIn as well, sharing just thoughts and ideas and learnings. So yeah, those are the top places to find me.

Dr. Travis Parry (48:09.324)
Thanks for being here, Tim. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. mean, as someone who's been successful in business is also successful from what I can tell in family and in life in general. Thank you for being on the show for contributing. know others need to hear what you said today. And like you said about your newsletter, some of our episodes are great. Some of them hit harder than others. And I really hope this hit hard for a lot of you out there listening and that you share and like.

Tim Metzner (48:11.756)
My pleasure.

Tim Metzner (48:31.086)
Hahaha

Dr. Travis Parry (48:39.138)
comment and do all the things subscribe and help us with this mission to help others build their family legacies. And thank you for being a part of this today, Tim.

Tim Metzner (48:50.53)
My pleasure, I love the conversation, I love what you're doing here, so thanks for having me Travis, it was really fun.

Dr. Travis Parry (48:56.008)
Absolutely. Until next time guys, remember live life on purpose together.


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